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A Seminar on Venets (Ptuj, 21st of September 2001 - Dr. Jozko Savli) | |
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Refinements and Future Directions in Venetic Scholarship | |
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Precišcenje stališc in bodoce smernice v študijah o Venetih - C. Bryant-Abraham | |
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Vindia (Veneti between Europe and India) - Dr. Jozko Savli | |
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J. Skulj (P. Eng.) - Letter to Mr. A. Paabo - March 10, 2002 | |
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J. Skulj (P. Eng.) - Letter to Prof. Tom Priestly - February 22, 2002 | |
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Indo-Aryan and Slavic Affinities - Joseph Skulj and Jagdish C. Sharda | |
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Prof. Charles Bryant-Abraham | |
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Review on Veneti - Prof. Charles Bryant-Abraham | |
| A Seminar on Venets |
| Castle Ptuj, Ivan Potrc Library |
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| Ptuj, 21st of September 2001 |
| The seminar meeting to discuss the question of Venets, the ancient ancestors of Slovenians, was a gathering on that same theme and specifically for the introduction of new books with Venetic content, the first meeting at an academic level. It was organized within the framework of annual meetings of the Slovenian World Congress, held in Maribor from the 20th to the 22nd of September 2001 under the sponsorship of the University of Maribor. It was especially organized because the discovery of Venets has shaken the currant view of history, culture and the nations of Europe as no other event. It also shook the idea, the notions and ideological foundations on which different national movements started in the 19th Century, substantiated their existence as well as their conquests, imperialism and wars with which they wanted to subordinate the so called "unhistorical" nations. |
| The discovery of Venets, who were not only the ancestors of Slovenians, but also of other nations, especially in Central Europe, brought a real shock to the currant explanation of European history. The interpretation, that was formed on the presumption of ancient nations: Romans, Germans and Slavs, are only ideological constructs based on languages. Ethnology, archeology and other sciences have not yet discovered such original nations. The subject on Venets, after the publication of the English version of the book, "Veneti, our Ancient Ancestors", written by authors Šavli, Tomazic and Bor, has spread around the world from America over Europe to Russia and Australia and it is not possible to ignore it any longer. |
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| Castle of Ptuj, September 21, 2001 - conference about ancient Veneti in the framework of the Slovenian World Congress. At the desk the chairmanship: Father Ivan Tomazic (Vienna, Austria), Dr. Jozko Šavli (Gorica, Italy), Dr. Anton Mavretic (Boston, USA). At the stand is speaking Prof. Pavel Tulayev (Moscow, Russia). |
| The meeting at Ptuj castle was chaired by dr. Anton Mavretic (Boston, USA). The first address was given by dr. Jozko Šavli (Goriza, Italy). He touched on the question of state finances for the Universities and Institutions that undoubtedly have impact on the scientific work. It is only as free and as democratic as the state is. Further he briefly introduced his study of `Venets between Europe and India'. India in fact is Vindia... This was followed by the study of `Brittany and the Inscriptions of Normandy', authored by Dr. Iur. Anthony Ambrozic (Thornhill, Canada). In his absence it was read by Dr. Mavretic. Mr. Ambrozic, with the help of the Slovenian language, deciphered numerous inscriptions of former Gallia. Further, Fr. Ivan Tomazic (Vienna, Austria), who is the initiator of Venetic studies, introduced "The nine theses on Slovenian ethnogenesis", with which he rejected the pompous studies of various historians at the meeting held in 1998 at Lublana, where they were unable to repudiate the Venetic theory. Ing. Joze Škulj (Toronto, Canada) compared Sanskirt with the Slovenian language in its detail, followed by Prof. Pavel Tulayev (Moscow, Russia) who introduced `Origins of Slavs', from the Venetic point of view. |
| After a short break Mr. Oscar Kogoj (Miren, Slovenia), a well-known artist, spoke of artistic expressions of the Venets and Mag. Lucijan Vuga (Nova Gorica, Slovenia) spoke about `Venets in the light of modern continuum'. The Venetic genealogical law and the beginning of the Venice Republic were discussed by Dr. Eduardo Rubini (Venice, Italy). Finally Dr. Mavretic explained the comparison of Slovenian words with English in regard to letters p, r and t. |
| The opening of an exhibition in the Library of Ivan Potrc followed at 7.00pm. The address was given and the opening performed by Dr. Miroslav Luci, the Mayor of the City of Ptuj. The exhibition was prepared by Fr. Ivan Tomazic and it will be open for some time. For the opening a local quartet sung two Slovenian songs. An instrumental group in national costumes presented some traditional old music. The exhibition shows documented material and pictures of some special examples of Venetic art. A supper was also served. |
| Picturesque Ptuj and the unique hospitality of town's people made a special impression on those present. Especially impressed were the guests from Venice who were very surprised to see the green unspoiled province of Štajerska. A great treasure that does not exist any longer in Venice and Northern Italy. |
| The following article is a summary of the talk published by Dr. Charles Bryant-Abraham in the Journal of Ancient and Medieval Studies XVIII: 2001. The Journal is a publication of the distinguished 'Octavian Society' (California), whose patron is Dr. Otto von Habsburg. |
| Refinements and Future Directions in Venetic Scholarship |
| Charles Bryant-Abraham, PhD, FSO |
| The following is an English translation of a talk given at the World Slovenian Congress at Ptuj Castle, near Maribor, Slovenia, on the 20/21 September 2001. |
| Distinguished Colleagues! |
| It is an honor and privilege to be invited to share with you a few modest thoughts on the present and future of Venetology, an emerging field promising to cast a new light on mankind's understanding of European pre-history. |
| First, a few introductory words about my own background are in order. I am a sixth-generation Texan, and there are relatively few of us on earth. My family first came to the Virginia Colony in North America in 1653. You will find few individuals who are as authentically American as I am. I was awarded a Ph.D. in Linguistics by the Université de Montréal for my work in Medieval Castilian philology. All of which is to say that I, at least for one, have no hidden agenda or political axe to grind about the importance of Slovenian dialectology in deciphering the Venetic inscriptions. I truly am simply an innocent academic bystander whose only interest is to learn a little more about early European pre-history. If I'm a chauvinist at all, I must be faulted as one of those proverbial insufferably-braggadocious types from the Lone Star State of Texas, a "John Wayne" cowboy, if you please. |
| But indeed I do suspect that history is about to be written, or rather rewritten. We stand on the threshold of a new world of insight into the pre-history of Europe and of the Mediterranean. |
| Prior to entering into my exposition before this August assembly, I must issue a preliminary disclaimer, for the timeless epistemological inquiry remains ever in front of us. How can the "truth" of a given moment in history ever really be known? Historian A may assert the reality of a fact and historians B, C, and D may successively quote the assertion of historian A in recounting their own stories of how things must have happened. But in every case where historians are not elaborating primary and direct evidence created at the time an event occurred, subsequent students of history will be coping with varying levels of credibility. The presupposition underlying any historical assertion doggedly remains, "It is believed that..." All that the most successful of historians ever achieve after that is a rearrangement of extant records lending strength to the probability of an assertion. In linguistic history, just as in social, military, literary, musical, or artistic history, there is simply no such thing as absolute proof of anything. Every "fact" we posit can only be based upon the preponderance of evidence found to date. At every step we must ask: "What does the preponderance of evidence now lead us to conclude?" |
| In the case before us, I must ask: what is all of this hue and cry about lack of scientific method in reexamining inscriptions which no one heretofore has been able to decode or make any significant sense of whatsoever? Do we now possess a preponderance of evidence permitting us to begin drawing some justifiable conclusions about these inscriptions, despite faulty methodology, or rather despite the lack of appropriate technical jargon to express the results obtained? Forgive me, but the analogy is obvious. It looks all the world like the proverbial, insecure, pedantic teacher who marks a correct math answer "wrong" just because the student derived the correct answer without recourse to the precious method the teacher had so painstakingly taught. Clearly the integrity of a method or system is at best secondary to the accurate solution of a given problem. |
| Likewise, a satisfactory solution to any problem must preempt every system of instruction designed to lead to that solution. But in recent Venetic research a number of instances have come to remind us of the adage: "There is no sound as painful as a scientist groaning under a collapsed theory." The question, however, will just not go away: What inescapable conclusions must be drawn from the preponderance of evidence to date? Thanks to a precious few, undaunted Slovenian scholars, for the first time inscriptions heretofore indecipherable are at last being meaningfully read. |
| Matej Bor, may he rest in peace, was a courageous pioneer who ventured forth into uncharted waters. All future Venetic scholarship will forever remain indebted to him. Like the work of every pioneer, the field of inquiry he so thoughtfully advanced will necessarily see many refinements in the years to come. But it must always be remembered: he was an intellectual father of Venetic studies. |
| Now, to the eyes of this sixth-generation Texas, it does seem that Matej Bor did manage to come to enough conclusions to make just about everyone on God' s green earth angry at him. To be so decisively iconoclastic about one sacred assumption is daring enough, but the weighty implications of Bor's deductions were so broad and deep that much of the subsequent opposition would not have been difficult to predict. |
| Still, to streamline out and systematize three simultaneous rivers, which he let flow, might now prove useful to future directions of Venetic scholarship. |
| 1. Undoubtedly the most intensely incendiary of Bor's findings is that Slovenian had heretofore been inaccurately classified as a South Slavic language, where in fact it is to be ranked among the West Slavic languages. This question continues to deserve all the attention it can bear, but for quite different reasons than those germane to the Venetic inscriptions. To sift out the objections of those decrying Venetic research as chauvinistically motivated, this entire issue should be reassigned to a specialized subcommittee for future development and redirected out of Venetic research altogether. |
| 2. The evidence of past Venetic presence in any given area, which can be marshaled from inherited place names, will necessarily always be speculative and cannot be allowed to detract attention from more decisive evidence. Nevertheless, Venetic topology must be pursued, especially in areas where inscriptions do independently attest to earlier Venetic settlement. Anton Ambrozic, in his book, Journey Back to the Garumna, has shown the validity and usefulness of Venetic topology in the territories of pre-Roman Gaul. Likewise, the identity of the pre-Greek Pelasgians, who had widely spread over the coasts and islands of the eastern Mediterranean and Aegean, may well be established through future Venetic topology, even in the dearth of reliable inscriptional evidence, as we shall come to see. |
| 3. The overwhelming importance of the Venetic runic inscriptions themselves must lead to the development of a separate and distinct scientific discipline, commanding the keenest focus of all Slavicists, for it does constitute the cultural patrimony of all Slavs. Indeed the high value of the ultra-conservative Slovenian dialects in the decipherment of these inscriptions has the potential of so enhancing the appreciation of Slovenian linguistics that those alpine dialects may yet come to be collectively hailed as the "mother of Slavic languages." My sincere advice is that research into these inscriptions should proceed "full steam ahead" to produce credibly deciphered texts which can then later be analyzed by linguistic specialists who will write their descriptions in the conventional jargon of the trade. |
| We absolutely must tease out these three subject areas if we are to develop each in its own right and attract future scholars into this new field of investigation. |
| Having duly considered these imperative refinements to the current practice of Venetology, let us now turn our attention to new avenues of approach begging to be opened. |
| As a point of transition, I shall attempt to illustrate an important principle. One of the earliest expressions of this principle is found in the second-century Jewish text, Pirké-Avót 4:1: "Ben Zoma used to say, who is wise? He who learns from all men, as is said in the Psalms, 'From all my teachers I have gained wisdom.'"1 |
| To make clear my implication, consider one critique of Matej Bor's work, "Vandals, Veneti, Windischer: The Pitfalls of Amateur Historical Linguistics," by Prof. Tom Priestly, read at the conference of the American Association for the Advancement of Slavic Studies in Denver, Colorado, on November 2000. My point is that none should take the criticism in a personal way, but rather apply oneself to the task of learning from it. Indeed, every criticism of Venetic scholarship must be taken seriously and used to refine the details of the theory. Still, Prof. Priestly might have benefited from a broader peripheral vision, had he just put a little more creative thinking into his critique.3 Be that as it may, for clear and good reasons, he quite correctly faults the work of Johann Topolovsek, Die Basko-slavische Spracheinheit. I Band, Einleitung. Vergleichende Lautlehre (1894), and the work of Franc Jeza, Skandinavski izvor Slovencev. Etnografska-jezikoslovna in zgodovinska studija (1967). Both of these studies failed to prove their case: clearly Slovenian and Basque do not share common descent, nor do Slovenian and Old Norse. In citing these two studies, which have nothing in common with Bor's research, Prof. Priestly has brought to the attention of Venetic scholarship an important new direction, specifically, early lexical borrowing from Venetic by contiguously-spoken languages. Obviously, neither Basque and Slavic nor Scandinavian and Slavic are derivable one from the other. Yet what is to be made of the extraordinary lexical correspondences that Topolovsek and Jeza have succeeded in amassing and, at least in the case of Basque which have recently been replicated by the Czech researcher, Ota Janek? This indeed opens a new avenue for future research, that of lexical borrowing in pre-historic times by languages in contact with Venetic. And it is to be expected that predictable phonologic laws will emerge within each receptor language, revealing the phonetic processes as it adapted Venetic loan words to its own speech habits over a long period of symbiosis. Instructive also are Jeza's correlated pairs of Slovenian and Old Norse shared lexical items, of which Prof. Priestly states: "Semantically, Jeza's word-pairs are even more plausible than Topolovsek's: in almost every instance, the Scand. and the Sln. word have an identical meaning; this is true of all the examples ... except for kupa 'hollow log' vs. cupa 'boat', which would indeed involve an acceptable semantic shift ... some pairs are so far apart phonetically that one wonders at Jeza's audacity in citing them... He seldom comments on this, but on page after carefree page lists hundreds of word-pairs with phonetic inconsistencies which are never related to any systematic framework and which seldom receive comment."2 Here, what Prof. Priestly failed to consider is that the Scandinavian/Venetic symbiosis continued over a vast stretch of time, and the phonetic habits of both languages, particularly Old Norse, continued to change without surcease, so that phonetic inconsistencies would not only be predictable, but would render somewhat difficult the work of consistent phonetic correlation. |
| Yet what is so very intriguing in Jeza's Scandanavian/Venetic word-pairs is the indirect, though still inconclusive, testimony of the two languages in contact, a testimony strengthening the Venetic hypothesis of the origin of Norse runes. To be brief, let me cite from the following4: "It has been established that a number of runes which are contemporaneous with the oldest of those found in the Danish bogland have been discovered along a line of country passing through Pomerania, Brandenburg, Volhynia and Rumania. Moreover, these discoveries include archaic objects the primary forms of which do not hail from western Europe but are found in southeastern Europe, on the northern coast of the Black sea and along the lower Danube and in Carinthia. From this fact, and also from the close agreement of the forms of the letters in these texts, especially the Negau helmets, with those of the subalpine alphabets of northern Italy, and the agreement in date (c. 250 B.C.), the conclusion was drawn simultaneously by a number of scholars that the runes came to Scandinavia from central Europe and that the script itself was of subalpine origin." In other words, it does now seem probable that the early Scandinavians not only borrowed vocabulary from the Veneti, but the art of runic writing itself. |
| Thus, the results of Topolovsek's and Jeza's studies must be reviewed from the alternative point of view of lexical loans. Moreover, similar studies are needed for the Greek, Celtic, Italic and Baltic language families. Also the Armorican Venetic lexical level of Breton should be further explored and documented, as Ota Janek has begun to do. |
| Prof. Priestly's critique is equally useful to us in two further instances where he should and could have used broader peripheral vision: |
| 1. Prof Priestly is correct in writing: "...since there was a single proto-phoneme /h/...the three consonantal correspondences.../h : k/, /h : g/ and /h : h/ must be in complementarity. In other words, in reconstructing the sound-changes involved in the development from Ven. (Psl.) to Sln., it is necessary to show that * /h/ changed to /k/ under some circumstances, to /g/ under some different circumstances, and remained unchanged as /h/ in a third set of circumstances..."5 Incidentally, it is likely that Venetic distinguished here a voiceless /h/ < /k/, /h/ and voiced /h/ < /g/, analogous to the voiced /h/ of Czech and Afrikaans. But isn't Priestly's speculation here really putting the cart before the horse? Once phonemes coalesce ( /k/, /g/, /h/ > /h/), they are not known to separate out again into the original phonemic inventory. Therefore, what we are confronting - and this is an important lead that Prof. Priestly provides - is the imminent emergence of Venetic dialectology. Indeed, Slovenian must henceforth take its place as the only surviving dialect of Venetic, and a most conservative one at that, for only sporadically did its regional variations undergo coalescence of the three phonemes at issue into /h/. |
| 2. Prof. Priestly further expands the emergent dialectology of Venetic in two other cases: 1.) "It is unclear what the Ven. word for 'fire' was. Cf. on the one hand: 'v han' - into the fire... and on the other 'v ougon' - into the fire'"6; and 2.) "...'betatism' ... Bor... has two graphemes labelled 'B,V' on his alphabet table... and whenever one occurs, he is more or less at liberty to interpret it as he pleases... this approach shows an annoying lack of consistency...".7 I must point out that these differences are highly indicative of dialectal variation over the vast Venetic territory and that given these differences, it will be incumbent upon future Venetologists to elaborate the dialectal contours and broad isoglosses of Venetic as attested in the inscriptions. |
| Parallel to the on-going analysis of the Venetic inscriptions, a thorough search must be undertaken throughout the Balkan Peninsula for all extant lapidary evidence of its former presence there. Foremost - and I have called attention to this elsewhere - an investigation must be made of all inscriptions associated with the age of Philip of Macedon preceding the Hellenization of his son, Alexander, under the tutelage of Aristotle. The close collaboration of Macedonian and Greek scholars must be solicited and sustained for this effort. We are encouraged in this direction by the findings of Anton Ambrozic who has successfully demonstrated Venetic presence in the Hellenistic city, Dura-Europos, founded by Alexander in the Syrian desert and destroyed by the Sassanids in AD 256, some 400 years before the supposed first penetration of Slavs into the Balkan Peninsula.8 These Venetic inscriptions from Dura-Europos lend weighty if still circumstantial evidence to my original conjecture that Alexander and his Macedonian people may very well have been Veneti. If this does prove to be the case, then the Macedonian people today will have every justifiable reason to reclaim their own linguistic patrimony. |
| Summarized by Dr. J. Šavli, and his comments: |
| We are delighted by the words of recognition given by the distinguished Prof. C. Bryant-Abraham about the work of the late Franz Jeza. He stated that by his studies Jeza did not prove what he intended to prove, namely that Slovenians have a Scandinavian origin. However, his work is valuable as it points to the interconnected influence of the Old Norse and the Venetic language. - Franz Jeza, originated from Hajdina near Ptuj, who cooperated as a student in Lublana with partisans during the Second World War, was sent to Dachau. After WW2 he fled before the Communist regime in Slovenia (Yugoslavia) to Trieste and worked for Radio Trieste A. Because of his sympathy to the idea of an independent Slovenian state he was continuously scorned by Yugoslav sympathizers in Trieste, on the left and on the right. An independent Slovenia came into being, despite all the abuse only a few years after his passing away († 1984). - Cfr. also Dr. Šavli's articles in http://forums.delphi.com/n/main.asp?webtag=veneti&nav=start - Vends in Scandinavia, Venets and Macedonians, Venets and Celts. |
| Precišcenje stališc in bodoce smernice v študijah o Venetih |
| Dr. Charles Bryant - Abraham |
| The Jerusalem Center for Biblical Studies and Research, Israel |
| The Augustan Society, USA |
| San Diego, Kalifornija, ZDA |
| V ponos in posebno cast mi je, da sem bil povabljen na to srecanje, na katerem lahko skupaj z Vami prispevam nekaj skromnih misli o sedanji in bodoci venetologiji. Gre za prebujajoce se polje znanosti, ki prinaša novo luc v clovekovo razumevanje predzgodovinske Evrope. |
| Kot predgovor naj podam najprej nekaj besed o svojem poreklu. Sem Texanec v šestem rodu, eden tistih, katerih je na tej zemlji razmeroma malo. Moja družina je prišla prvic v kolonijo Virginija v Severni Ameriki že leta 1653. Našli boste torej le malo ljudi, ki so tako pristni Americani kot jaz. Na univerzi v Montrealu (Kanada) so mi podelili doktorat za disertacijo iz kastilijske (španske) filologije srednjega veka. Vse to pove, da nimam nikakršnih skritih nacrtov ali namena brusiti sekir glede pomena slovenskih narecji v razreševanju venetskih napisov. Sem le akademik, preprost zacetnik, cigar edini namen je ta, da se nauci kaj vec o zgodnjem obdobju v predzgodovini Evrope. ce bi bil lahko v kakem pogledu šovinist, potem mi lahko ocitate, ce želite, da sem eden izmed hvalevrednih tipov, neke vrste "John Wayne", kavboj iz eno-zvezdne države Texas. |
| Preprican sem, da se bo morala zgodovina spet pisati, ali bolje receno, pisati na novo. Nahajamo se namrec na pragu odkritij, ki svetu odpirajo nov pogled v predzgodovino Evrope in Sredozemlja. |
| Preden zacenem razlagati svoj študijski poseg na tem septemberskem srecanju, naj še zavrnem morebitne ugovore na vse predolgo teoretiziranje v mojem izvajanju. Kako naj bo resnica v danem zgodovinskem trenutku zares poznana? Zgodovinar A poudari npr. resnicnost nekega zgodovinskega dogodka, in zgodovinarji B, C in D lahko kasneje navajajo njegovo trditev, ko prikazujejo svojo lastno zgodbo o tem, kako so se omenjene stvari dogajale. V vsakem primeru pa, kjer zgodovinarji niso delali in vodili pregleda ter naredili potrebnih zakljuckov, bodo nadaljni preucevalci zgodovine prevzemali njih zgodovinsko gradivo na razlicnih stopnjah verodostojnosti. Potemtakem je torej naslednja, skoraj po pasje stroga predpostavka "Sodimo, da je..." še nadalje upravicena za kakršno koli zgodovinsko navajanje. |
| Vse, kar lahko tudi najbolj uspešni zgodovinarji naredijo, je to, da stare podatke na novo preuredijo in dosežejo z njimi na ta nacin vecjo zanesljivost, kot je bila poprej. V zgodovini lingvistike, pa tudi v družbeni, vojaški, književni, glasbeni pa umetnostni zgodovini, sploh ni nicesar, kar bi predstavljalo absoluten dokaz za karkoli. Vsako "dejstvo", ki ga postavimo, temelji lahko le na do tedaj prevladujocih dokazih. Na vsakem nadaljnem koraku pa se moramo znova vprašati: "Kaj lahko sklepamo na temelju sedaj prevladujocih dokazov?" |
| V primeru, ki je pred nami, se moram vprašati: Zakaj nenadoma takšen hrup v iskanju neke pomanjkljivosti znanstvene metode pri ponovnem razreševanju napisov, ki jih doslej nihce ni bil sposoben prevesti ali smiselno razložiti? Na vsak nacin imamo sedaj prevladujoce število dokazov, ki nam omogoca, da zacnemo lahko delati o teh napisih upravicene zakljucke, ne glede na nepopolno metodo, ali bolje receno, ne glede na pomanjkanje ustreznega tehnicnega izražanja, s katerim bi predstavili dosežene resultate. Oprostite, toda analogija vsega tega je vendarle samoumevna. Zdi se, da je svet kot nekakšen prislovicen ucitelj, negotov, vendar pedanten, ki popravlja pravilen odgovor z oceno "napacno" samo zato, ker je ucencec prišel do pravega odgovora brez upoštevanja dragocene metode ucitelja, ki jo je bil že skorajda bolestno pouceval. Jasno je, da je zanesljivost neke metode ali sistema v najboljšem primeru drugotnega pomena, potem ko jo primerjamo z natancnostjo rešitve zastavljenega problema. |
| In temu primerno, zadovoljiva rešitev kakega problema mora imeti prednost pred vsakršnim ucnim sistemom, ki je namenjen njegovemu reševanju. Vsled tega nas v sedanjem raziskovanju Venetov pripombe od mnogih pristojnih strani v znanstvenem svetu spominjajo samo na pregovor: "Nic ni tako mucnega kot glas znanstvenika, ki jeci pod težo propadle teorije." Toda vprašanje, ki se mu ne moremo izogniti, ostaja seveda naprej, in sicer: Kateri so tisti neizbežni zakljucki, ki jih moramo narediti na podlagi obilice danes poznanih dokazov? Zahvaljujoc se dragocenemu delu nekaj neustrašenih slovenskih raziskovalcev lahko sedaj prvic smiselno prebiramo napise, ki so bili vse doslej nerazložljivi. |
| Matej Bor, ki naj pociva v miru, je bil korajžen pionir, ki je oral ledino. Vsa prihodnja znanost o Venetih mu bo ostala za vedno hvaležna. Tako kot delo vsakega pionirja, bo polje raziskovanja, na katerem je tako prizadevno deloval, v prihodnjih letih nujno doživljalo nadaljne izboljšave. Toda vedno se bo treba zavedati: On je bil duhovni oce venetskih študij. |
| In sedaj se v oceh tukaj prisotnega Texanca šestih rodov zdi, da je Matej Bor zares uspel priti do zadostnih zakljuckov, in da je prav zato na tem božjem zelenem svetu naredil skoraj vsakogar jeznega. Dovolj drzno je bilo namrec od njegove strani, da je bil ikonoklasticen do sakraliziranih predstav. Toda prava teža njegovega dela so bili njegovih zakljucki, tako široki in globoki, da jih vecini njegovih poznejših nasprotnikov ni bilo mogoce predvideti. |
| In zato, da njegove zakljucke sistematiziramo in pospešimo njihovo vrednotnje, naj na tem mestu potrdimo kot primerne za uporabo v bodocih smernicah venetske znanosti tri samodejne tokove, ki izvirajo iz Borovega dela. |
| 1. Dejstvo, ki je najbolj vžgalo, je bilo brez dvoma Borovo odkritje, da slovenšcina, ki so jo doslej uvršcali med južno slovanske jezike, pripada dejansko zahodno slovanskim jezikom. To vprašanje zasluži še nadalje vso pozornost, ki jo lahko ima, toda prav zahodno slovanski jezki so iz dokaj razlicnih razlogov sorodni venetskim napisom. Da bi lahko precedili vse ugovore tistih, ki venetskim raziskavam nasprotujejo zgolj iz šovinisticnih razlogov, bi morala biti celotna zadeva predana v pregled nekemu odboru, ki bi obravnaval nadaljni razvoj venetskih študij, in bi deloval povsem izven njihovega okvira. |
| 2. Dokaz o prisotnosti Venetov v preteklosti na nekem danem podrocju, na kar lahko jasno sklepamo iz podedovanih imen, bo vedno špekulativen, in ne smemo dopustiti, da bi nam to odtegnilo pozornost od odlocilnega dokaza. Naj vsak nacin pa je treba še naprej raziskovati venetsko toponomastiko, zlasti v predelih, kjer venetski napisi neodvisno od nje potrjujejo venetsko naselitev. Anton Ambrožic je v svoji knjigi "Journey back to Garumna"prikazal veljavnost in uporabnost venetske toponomastike na obmocju predrimske Galije. Podobno temu bo verjetno tudi identiteta predgrških Pelasgov, ki so na široko naseljevali obrežja in otoke vzhodnega dela Sredozemlja in Egeja, dolocena preko venetske toponomastike, ce bomo ob pomanjkanju zanesljivih dokazov njihove pisave lahko prišli do tega. |
| 3. Izreden pomen venetskih napisov v obliki run mora privesti do razvoja razlicnih in tudi locenih znanstvenih panog, ki bodo za vse slaviste kar najbolj izostren predmet pozornosti, saj predstavljajo kulturno dedišcino za vse Slovane. Dejstvo je, da visoka vrednost neverjetno starih slovenskih narecij tako zelo dviga pomen slovenistike pri reševanju teh napisov, da lahko slovenska alpska narecja kot celoto razglasimo za "mater slovanskih jezikov". Moje iskreno priporocilo je, da naj bi se raziskovanje venetskih napisov na tej osnovi nadaljevalo "s polno paro", tako da bi dobili verodostojne rešitve, ki bi jih pozneje analizirali specializirani lingvisti in njihovo vsebino izpisali v standarnem izrazu znanosti. |
| Vsa tri podrocja je treba na vsak nacin izlušciti iz celotne problematike, ce hocemo vsakega posebej razviti v njegovi znacilnosti, in tako pritegniti bodoce ucenjake na novo raziskovalno polje. |
| Sedaj, ko smo opredelili nujna razcišcenja v zvezi s tekocim delom na podrocju venetologije, obrnimo v pristopu k temu problemu našo pozornost še na nove poti, ki bi se nam rade odprle. |
| Kot eno izmed prehodnih tock bi v tem pogledu hotel predstaviti še neko pomembno nacelo. Že dokaj zgodaj je bilo v judovskem besedilu Pirké-Avót 4:1 iz 2. stol. navedeno naslednje: Ben Zoma je bil navajen reci: "Kdo je moder? Tisti, ki se uci od vseh ljudi, kot je navedeno v Psalmih: Od vseh mojih uciteljev sem prejel mojo modrost" (1). |
| Zato, da bo moj poseg bolj jasen, naj predocim vsled tega eno izmed kritik na študije Mateja Bora z naslovom "Vandals, Veneti, and Windischer: The Pitfalls of Amateur Historical Linguistics" (Vandali, Veneti in Vindišarji: Skrite pasti za ljubiteljsko zgodovinsko jezikoslovje), ki jo je prof. Tom Priestly prebral na konferenci društva "American Assotiation for the Advancement of Slavic Studies" v Denverju, Colorado (ZDA), meseca novembra 2000. Moje stališce je, da kritike nihce ne sme jemati osebno, temvec da si prizadevamo iz nje nauciti se cesa. In tako je treba resno vzeti tudi vsako kritiko venetske teorije, zato da jo potem lahko uporabimo za njeno nadaljno izjasnjevanje. Tako sodim, da bi lahko tudi prof. Priestly pridobil širši pogled za svoje obzorje, ce bi bil v svojo kritiko vnesel nekaj vec ustvarjalnega mišljenja (2). Kakor koli že, on dokaj korektno graja, cetudi iz cistih in dobrih namenov, knjigo Johanna Topolovška Die Baskoslavische Spracheinheit. I Band, Einleitung, Vergleichende Lautlehre (1894), ter knjigo Franca Jeze Skandinavski izvor Slovencev. Etnografska-jezikoslovna in zgodovinska študija (1967). Obe študiji res nista uspeli dokazati zastavljenega cilja. Jasno, saj slovenšcina in baskovšcina nimata skupnega porekla, in prav tako ne tudi slovenšcina in stara skandinavšcina. Vendar pa, kaj naj naredimo z izrednimi skladnostmi besedišc v teh jezikih, ki sta jih Topolovšek in Jeza uspela nakopiciti? Še posebej v primeru baskovšcine, kakor je zadnje case dognal tudi ceški raziskovalec Ota Janek? |
| Vse, kar je bilo pravkar navedeno, nam resnicno odpira nove poti za nadaljne raziskave, in sicer o besednih izposojenkah v jezikih, ki so bili v predzgodovini v stiku z venetšcino. Pricakujemo lahko, da bodo prišle na dan glasoslovne (fonološke) zakonitosti znotraj vsakega jezika, ki je sprejemal venetske izposojenke, in da se bo tako razkril tudi glasoslovni proces, s katerim so bile skozi dolgo obdobje sožitja prilagojene njegovim govornim navadam. Slovenske in staronordijske vzporednice, kot jih Jeza navaja iz obeh jezkov, so torej dokaj poucne. O tem pa prof. Priestly ugotavlja naslednje: "Pomenoslovno (semanticno) so Jezova besedna vzporedja še bolj verodostojna kot Topolovškova; v skoraj vsakem primeru imata skandinavska in slovenska beseda isti pomen; vse to res obstaja skoraj za vse primere... razen pri besedah kupa "votlo deblo" in cupa "coln", ki vsebujeta sicer še sprejemljiv pomenski premik. Nekaj vzporednic pa je pomensko tako dalec narazen, da se clovek cudi Jezovi drznosti pri njihovem navajanju. Prav redko jih razlaga, toda na naslednji strani brezskrbno zaznamuje tudi po vec kot sto vzporednic z glasoslovnimi protislovji, ki niso imela nikoli povezave s kako sistematicno zgradbo in zato le redko zaslužijo kako pripombo" (3). Ravno tukaj pa je tisto, cesar prof. Prestly ni zmožen upoštevati, in sicer, da je skandinavsko/venetsko sožitje trajalo zelo dolgo obdobje, tako da so se glasoslovne navade v obeh jezikih, še zlasti v nordijskem, nadaljevale brez presledka, vsled cesar so protislovja v glasoslovju ne le predvidljiva, temvec bodo naredila kar nekaj težav pri raziskavah obstojecih vzporedij. |
| Tisto, kar je v Jezovih skandinavsko/venetskih vzporednicah še posebej izzivalno, je, cetudi brez sklepanja, posredno pricevanje o tem, da sta si bila oba jezika v stiku. To je dokaz, ki le še podkrepi podmeno o venetskem izvoru nordijskih run. Zato, da bom kratek, mi dovolite samo naslednjo navedbo (4): "Dognali so, da se mnogo run, socasnih s starejšimi runami, ki so jih našli v mocvirjih na Danskem, nahaja v pasu, ki vodi skozi dežele Pomeranija, Brandenburg, Volinija in Romunija. Še vec, njihova najdišca vsebujejo tudi arhaicne predmete, katerih izvirne oblike prav jasno izhajajo, ne iz zahodne, temvec iz jugo-vzhodne Evrope, in so jih našli na severnih obalah crnega morja, ob spodnji Donavi in v Karantaniji. Iz tega dejstva in iz tesnih skladnosti pri oblikah crk v besedilih, še posebej na celadah iz Negove, ki jih imajo s tistimi v abecedi izpod Alp v severni Italiji, ter iz raznih drugih skladnosti (okoli 250 pr. Kr.), je bil samodejno narejen sklep mnogih ucenjakov, da so rune prišle v Skandinavijo iz Srednje Evrope, in da je ta pisava podalpskega izvora." Z drugimi besedami, sedaj postane že kar verjetno, da zgodnji Skandinavci od Venetov niso prevzeli le besed, temvec tudi sŕmo umetnost pisave z runami. |
| Iz tega sledi, da je treba študije Topolovška in Jeze z alternativnega vidika besednih izposojenk na novo preuciti. Še vec, takšne študije so nujne tudi za grško, keltsko, italsko in bretonsko (armoriško) jezikovno skupino. Tudi armoriško/venetsko plast besed, ki jo je zacel odkrivati Ota Janek, bi bilo treba raziskati in dokumentirati. |
| Kritika prof. Priestlyja pa je za nas koristna še v naslednjih dveh primerih, pri katerih naj bi bil, in bi tudi lahko, uporabil mnogo širše obzorje. |
| 1. Prof. Priestly ima prav, ko piše: "... ker je h obstajal prvotno še kot edini praglas (protofonem), potem so morali tudi trije soglasniki... h:k, h:g in h:h nastati iz njega. Z drugimi besedami: Zato, da lahko rekonstruiramo glasovne premene, do katerih je prišlo pri razvoju venetšcine (praslovanšcine) v slovenšcino, je potrebno vedeti, da se je *h samo v dolocenih okolišcinah spreminjal v k, v drugacnih okolišcinah pa v g, in da je v tretjem primeru ostal nespremenjen kot h..." (5). - Mimogrede, dokaj verjetno je, da je venetšcina tukaj razlikovala nezveneci h < k ter h in zveneci h < g. Podobno temu kot obstaja zveneci h v cešcini in v afrikaansu. Toda, ali ni tukaj Priestlyjeva špekulacija je prav v tem, da postavlja voz pred konja? Ko se namrec enkrat zlijejo glasovi (k, g, h > h), nam ni znano, da bi se potem spet razstavili v izvirno glasovno stanje. Vsled tega je tisto, s cimer se mi soocamo - in to je tudi pomembno vodilo, ki ga prof. Priestly izvaja - ocitno pojav narecij venetšcine. In tako je res, slovenšcina mora odslej prevzeti svoje pravo mesto kot edino preživelo in kot najbolj starinsko (arhaicno) narecje venetšcine. Zakaj, le v nekaterih primerih so pokrajinske premene omenjenih glasov privedle do zlitja v h. |
| 2. Prof. Priestly, nadalje, razširja pojav narecij v venetšcini še na dva primera, ko pravi: 1.) Nejasno je, kakšna naj bi bila venetska beseda za "ogenj". Primerjaj po eni strani: v han - v ogenj... in po drugi: v ougon - "v ogenj" (6), in 2.) ... 'betatizem'... Bor... ima dva znaka B, V v svolji abecedni tabeli... kadar katerega potrebuje, ga bolj ali manj svobodno uporabi, kakor mu je pac všec... takšen pristop odraža že prav mucno pomanjkanje doslednosti... (7). - Moram poudariti, da so te raznolikosti dokaj znacilne za narecne glasovne premene po vsem obsežnem venetskem prostoru. In ce obstajajo, potem bo dolžnost bodocih venetologov, da obdelajo narecne profile in prikažejo obsežne izoglose (narecna obmocja) venetšcine, kakor je izpricana v napisih. |
| Vzporedno s sedanjim razreševanjem venetskih napisov pa je potrebno zaceti tudi temeljito razskavo obstojecih napisov, vklesanih na kamne po vsem Balkanu, kjer so bili svoj cas že odkriti. Nujna bi bila predvsem preucitev - in na to sem nekje že opozoril - vseh napisov, ki izhajajo iz obdobja Filipa Macedonskega, še pred helenizacijo njegovega sina Aleksandra, ki ga je vzgajal Aristotel. V ta namen bi bilo nujno tesno sodelovanje macedonskih in grških izvedencev. K delu v tej smeri nas spodbujajo odkritja Antona Ambrožica, ki je uspešno dokazal prisotnost Venetov v helenisticnem mestu Dura-Europos, katerega je Aleksander ustanovil v Sirijski pušcavi. Porušili so ga potem Sasanidi leta 256 po Kr., torej okoli 400 let pred prihodom Slovanov na Balkan (8). Venetski napisi iz Dura-Europos dobijo svojo posebno težo, ce bi se potrdila moja prvotna domneva, da so bili Aleksander in njegovi Macedonci prav lahko Veneti. ce se izkaže, da je to res, potem bo današnji macedonski narod imel upravicen razlog, da se lahko sklicuje na svojo staro jezikovno dedišcino. |
| In koncno mi je še v cast, da na tem srecanju opozorim tudi na veliko število predrimskih napisov v Iberiji (Španiji), ki še niso razrešeni. Te napise, ki so prav tako v venetskih runah, sedaj zelo nadrobno raziskujejo španski arheologi in jezikoslovci. Moja vloga pri tem je skromna, in sicer, da vzpostavim most med dvema svetovoma, to je, med španskimi in slovenskimi izvedenci. Zakaj vse se zdi, da se bodisi eni kot drugi doslej še niso zavedeli pomena svoje specificne naloge. |
| Pregled znakov (Exhibit) v prikazu št. 1 nam odkriva runsko abecedo iz rimskega mesta Tartessos, to je biblijski Taršiš (9). Opazimo lahko njihove nagibe v vodoravni in navpicni smeri, vedar ostajajo kljub temu še vedno venetski. |
| Prikaz št. 2 predstavlja dva napisa, ki so ju našli na Sardiniji in ju hrani arheološki muzej v mestu Cagliari (10). |
| Prikaz št. 3 bo služil za to, da zacnemo odkrivati še drugo panogo venetologije, to je venetsko numizmatiko. Vsi napisi v tem prikazu izhajajo s predrimskih kovancev, najdenih v Španiji (11). |
| Pregled v prikazu št. 4 nam odkriva iberijske napise, ki so jih našli ob sredozemski obali od Katalonije pa vse do Andaluzije (12). |
| Ni moj namen in niti v moji moci, da vam danes predstavim pregled številnih iberijskih napisov, marvec da vas opozorim na njihov obstoj, in vas iskreno spodbudim k nadaljnemu prizadevanju za njihovo prevajanje. Ob zakljucku želim še opozoriti, da je ocitno, kako so ladje Venetov plule po Sredozemlju skozi Gibraltarsko ožino in potem ob zahodni in severni obali Iberskega polotoka, pa cez Baskovski zaliv, in dosegle svoj koncni cilj Armoriko (Bretanja). Rimski zgodovinar Tacit poroca o srecanju z Veneti v tej deželi in o njihovem mocnem ladjevju. Še vec, lahko opazimo, da je španska arheologija prišla že zelo dalec v prizadavanjih, da nam predstavi kulturo, ki je imela svoje središce ob ustju Guadalquivira. To je bil biblijski Taršiš, ki ga pogosto omenja Stara zaveza. Ali bi bilo mogoce, da so "ladje iz Taršiša", ki jih prav tako omenja Sveto pismo, vodili venetsko govoreci predniki Slovencev? - In dalje, malo nam je znano o zgodnjih predgrških ljudstvih, o tistih, ki so zgradila znamenite kipe na Kikladih. Toda, ce se spomnimo Homerjeve omembe Venetov v bojih za Trojo, odpira naš koncni prikaz vrata do resnicno vznemirljive možnosti, ki nam obeta bogato prihodnost venetskih študij. |
| Prikaz št. 5 nam kaže velike slicnosti med zgodovinskimi runami Venetov in najbolj zgodnjimi napisi iz vzhodnega Sredozemlja, grških otokov ter grškega in italskega polotoka (13). Vsi ti obstojeci napisi, izpisani v sorodnih runskih abecedah, morajo sedaj postati predmet kar najbolj kriticnega preucevanja, ki naj pokaže njihov morebiten proto-slovanski izvor. |
| Moje besede ob slovesu s tega srecanja sem povzel iz zapisov, ki nam jih je zapustil ameriški filozof in zdravnik dr. Abraham J. Twerski. Naj navedem kar piše: |
| "Nic ni novega pod soncem." (Ecclesiastes 1:9). |
| Amerika je bila vedno tam, že dolgo prej, preden jo je odkril Kolumb. Penicilin je ubijal bakterije že mnogo prej, preden ga je Fleming odkril. Lahko bi šli še naprej, in navedli številna odkritja, ki so koristila cloveštvu, preden so bila deležna naše pozornosti. |
| Bilo je receno: Ko je študent pripravljen, se bo tudi ucitelj prikazal. Isto lahko recemo o odkritjih. Razodela se nam bodo, ko bomo pripravljeni nanje. Kaj je tisto, kar to pripravljenost naredi, pa je še vedno skrivnost. Tehnološki napredek je vezan na predhodni razvoj. Mnoga druga odkritja pa so bila prav pred našimi ocmi, vendar jih nismo videli. |
| Ta predstava je tako resnicna v idejah in snovanjih v našem življenju, kot je resnicna tudi v znanstvenih odkritjih (14). |
| Spoštovani kolegi, mnogo težkega in marljivega dela je pred nami v prihodnjih letih. Jaz vam ploskam za vse tisto, kar ste že naredili, in vas spodbujam, vse in vsakogar od vas, da gremo naprej - v prihodnost. |
| Prevod iz anglešcine: prof. dr. Anton Mavretic, 34 Liberty St, Natick, MA - 01760 USA, fax (508)655 1303 |
| Poudarki v barvah so od uredništva Caranthe. |
| Angleški izvirnik je objavil "Journal of Ancient and Medieval Studies" (XVIII: 2001), ki ga izdaja The Octavian Society (Daggett, California, USA). Društvu predseduje Sir Rodney Hartwell, njegov pokrovitelj je dr. Oton von Habsburg. |
| Opombe: |
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(1) Psalm 119: 99a |
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(2) Prof. Priestly naj ponovno preveri svoje znanje nemške slovnice, kakor je jasno videti v naslovu njegove kritike, kjer uporablja rodilnik množine pri cisto samostalniškem pridevniku "Windischer", za katerega bi moral uporabljati množino samostalnika, to je "Windische". |
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(3) Tom Priestly: Vandals, Veneti, and Windischer: The Pitfalls of Amateur Historical Lingustics, text for possible publication, being a longer version of The "Veneti" Theory, paper, AAASS, Denver, November 2000, "5.2. The theory that Scandinavian and Slovene are closely related". |
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(4) Encyclopaedia Britannica (1967), article "Rune", p. 660. |
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(5) Tom Priestly: Vandals, Veneti, and Windischer. The Pitfalls of Amateur Historical Linguistics, text for possible publication, being a longer version of The "Veneti" Theory, paper, AAASS, Denver, Colorado, November 2000, "5.4.3. The Phonologica Evidence: Some Correspondence Sets." |
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(6) itm., "5.4.5. Further Criticism". |
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(7) itm., "5.4.6. Variation". |
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(8) prim. Anton Ambrožic, Adieu to Brittany, Part Two, pp. 74 - 86. |
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(9) Julio Caro-Baroja, "La Escritura en la Espańa Preromana (Epigrafía y Numismática)", in La Espańa primitiva, Vol. II. La Protohistoria, by Martin Almagro Basch and Antonio García y Bellido, pp. 685 ff. |
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(10) itm. |
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(11) itm. |
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(12) itm. |
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(13) itm. |
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(14) Abraham Twerski, MD, Growing Each Day, Brooklyn, NY: Mesorah Publications, Ltd. 1992, pp. 327. |
| Vindia |
| Veneti between Europe and India |
| Awakening of a Drowned People |
| published by: |
| Dr. Jozko Šavli, FAS, KdB, FSAI |
| Fellow of the Augustan Society |
| Knight de Bryan |
| Fellow of Sodality of the Ark International |
| This summary is an excerpt of Dr. Jozko Šavli's studies and new discoveries on "Vindia", introduced by him to his colleagues at the seminar in Ptuj. Further elaboration on the subject will be published in the near future. |
| In my paper Veneti, naši Davni Predniki (Veneti, our Ancient Ancestors), published some years ago in Glas Korotana No. 10 (Vienna 1985), I examined the land of the Veneti or Wends between the Baltic and the Adriatic Sea, where they migrated to and colonized those lands around 1200 BC. The archaeologists agree that the Veneti's reason for resettlement was not to conquer and dominate but rather to spread a new creed, in which the salvation of the soul was at its centre. |
| In the territory between the Baltic and the Adriatic Sea the Veneti handed down their ancient culture to the 20th century as a group of Western Slavs or Wends; they were also the substrate for at least 2/3 of the German population, only 1/3 or even less originate from a German, i.e., from a Teutonic substrate. Even today, early in spring there is a mlaj (Maypole) to be found in many German villages, and in their centre grows a lipa (linden tree) symbolising the tree of life, the tree of Wends - Veneti, and not the Teutonik oak. |
| The Veneti followed the tradition of the Urnfield culture, because they cremated and buried their deceased in funeral urns on extensive cemeteries. They branched out into various directions; some of them migrated to Asia Minor where they lived in the region of Paflagonia along the Black Sea. From there they came to the assistance of Troy, which was besieged and conquered by the Greeks in 1184 BC. The poet Homer is describing them in his Iliad and in Greek he calls them: The Veneti Henetoi or Enetoi. |
| With reference to page 118 in my paper, I mentioned a certain mountain range called Vindhya parvata (Windian Hills) that divides North and South India. This name bears evidence, as I mentioned earlier, that the Veneti advanced as far as India. However, I found no such evidence in archaeological literature, yet in German literature it is mentioned that the carriers of the Urnfield culture reached the distant land of Iran or Persia. |
| To India |
| Eventually I managed to obtain the book Les Indo-Europcens (Paris 1961) written by an expert archaeologist P. Bosch Gimpera. The mentioned archaeologist tells us in his work (on page 223) that, based on archaeological evidence, the Veneti from Paflagonia, continued East across Persia and Afghanistan after the defeat of Troy, and in my observation they reached Punjab across the Khyber mountain pass (1022 m) towards 1150 BC. |
| They reached the area where the Aryans (Indo-Europeans) lived since 1800 BC, who were a group related to the Veneti. The Veneti possessed a very strong organisational and religious or at least spiritual force and united themselves with the Aryans to one nation. This new combined nation, known until today by the name of Aryans or Hindi, was able to penetrate towards East to the river valley of the Ganges by the year 1000 BC, and conquered the whole area up to the Himalayas. A new vast country came into existence, which still today carries the name Hindustran (like Heneti - Veneti). India -actually Vindia - was born. |
| The religious and spiritual force of the Indian Veneti was unbelievable. Their religious cast "Brahmins" governed in all principalities that evolved on the territory of Hindustan (Hindusthâna). From the expansion of Dekan in the South they were separated by a mountain range that consequently received its unique name Vindhya parvata. |
| According to a legend in Mahabharata (iii, 8782 & c.) the personified Vindhya, jealous of the Himâlaya, demanded that the sun should revolve around him in the same manner as it does around Meru, but the sun declined to oblige. Vindhya then began to elevate himself, so that he might bar the progress of both sun and moon. The Gods, now being alarmed, asked Saint Agastya for aid, who approached Vindhya and requested that, if he behaves himself humble Agastya would grant him a passage to the South of the country, also begging him at the same time to remain in a low position until his return. This he promised to do, but Agastya never returned, and the Vindhya mountain range consequently never attained the elevation of the Himâlaya. |
| Such a diffusion of religion, philosophy, poetry, and story telling, caused by the Veneti in India, the world had never seen before. There are the famous Vedas, poetry Mahabharata, remarkable Upanishad and also the much-appreciated Ramayana, even though it appeared much later, it had its origin in the Veneti tradition… |
| So let us make reference to just some of the unbelievable spiritual legacies that cannot be traced back to the Aryans, but only to the Veneti. There were also religious structures, which were at the same time systems of life: Brahmans, Buddhism, and Hinduism. |
| These systems are interwoven with components that we can find in Christianity, which later emerged especially in the doctrine involving the saving of the soul (through many auguries). Their highest conception was the Trimurti (Trnity), there is also a monotheistic belief in Vishnu (the Almighty, literally the Highest), and the belief in Krishna (the Saviour), who was sent to earth to save the people; and there are also images of heaven as in Buddhism, Nirvana. Most important is the religious experience, as it is still the case in today's Hindu practice. |
| All these religions are often only philosophical beliefs, which are immensely spread in today's India. However, from them we can extract elements that are components of the original spirituality of Veneti or Wends, components that are primarily of religious experiences. |
| In Europe |
| As in India, we can detect similar or the same basic components of material of spiritual culture among the Veneti (or Wends, or Windish) in Europe. Here we are more familiar with the material culture of the Hallstatt period that reached its climax around 800 - 400 BC. Archaeology in Central Europe discovered remarkable artefacts with magnificent decorations, tools, weapons etc. - iron, bronze, gold as it is demonstrated in opulent kings' graves. Even though, the social structure of the European Veneti was not founded on a dictatorship by the monarchs and oppression of the people. The Venetic woman was free. The social structure was based on the election of their leaders. |
| The most precious artefacts of that period are situla bronze buckets made for important festivities, which show scenes from the daily life style of the Veneti people. The artefacts reflect a kind of originality and spirituality that is totally different from the classic Greek and Roman art. This type of craftsmanship exhibits aesthetic accomplishment and beauty - yet every artefact is unique and original. |
| Collections of Venetic art are stored in the museums of Este, Padua, Bologna and other cities, and they display the magnificent material culture of the Veneti, which give us a divine look into their spiritual world. However, there are no detailed descriptions on the artefacts, only some notes. In theme, there is an insight into a spiritual world, which is the same as that in India. |
| It is surprising, that in connection with the European Veneti we also encounter the Trinity, called Triboziat or Trimuziat (threemen). We encounter also the deity of the sun, Belin, of the world, Reitia, of war, Latobius, and also worshipping the son of the sun, Fetonte (Phaéthôn, in Greek)… |
| His story is one of the rare ones, which was handed down by the ancient Veneti. We only know the Greek-Roman version, but its content belongs to the Veneti. The story is as follows. - Fetonte, i.e., »splendid« was the son of the Sun (Helios, Apolo) and his wife Climene. He was obsessed with the idea that he would, at any cost, take a trip across the earth. So, by begging his father, he finally got permission to take the sunny span. However, the divine horses felt that he was not an expert enough to handle them and he lost control over them. As a result, he and his span passed the earth so close, that it almost was caught on fire. Jupiter heard the peoples' alarmed cries, so he struck Fetonte with his lightening into the river Eridanus (meaning Po). Fetonte's sisters buried him, and on the banks of Eridanus they mourned their brother for 4 months. Finally, the divinities had pity, and transformed them into poplar trees and their tears into amber drops. |
| Further, we also find the tree of life, the Linden Tree everywhere from the Baltic to the Adriatic, as well as many habits and customs that were retained especially in country regions. Throughout the many traditions that have been preserved also in German speaking regions, we can feel the same religious experience that brought India enthusiasm and a joyful spirit. |
| However, after the Celts and Germans dominated large parts of Central Europe, the Veneti/Wends/Windish spiritual force stopped under the influence of the new national substrate, where it simmered for many centuries during the whole feudal era of the Middle Ages and beyond. Only in recent times, when following the French example, particular nations including Germans begun to form; the spiritual force of the Veneti was released again and real thinkers came to the forefront. Thinkers, creators, artists, painters, philosophers…Goethe, Heine…Mozart, Beethoven… |
| This happened with all nationalities regardless of their language. Their creators were reaping, without realising it, from the same treasure of spiritual traditions that had been the substrate of the Veneti in the territory between the Baltic and the Adriatic. It is difficult to imagine that all these great creators were scooping from tradition of Germans, a nation of »warriors«, with horns on their helmets. |
| The spirit of the ancient Veneti survived within the Celts, Romans, and Germans and even though they lost their primary language in many regions, they regained their identity for a long time, almost until recent times. Therefore the hypothesis, that I submitted for discussion is as follows: In my opinion, the spiritual force that has awakened the greatest creators throughout the nations of Central Europe (Germans, Austrians, Czechs, Polish, Slovaks, Slovenians…), can be attributed primarily to the Veneti (Wends, Winds, Windish), and today's nations of Central Europe are, notwithstanding their differences in language, the successors of the Veneti. |
| And what's the matter with the Eastern Slavs: Russians, Ukrainians, and Belorussians? |
| In my study concerning the Veneti (proto-Slavs) I could not, because of the extensiveness of the topic, deal with the Venetic migration in Eastern Europe. It must have taken place already in centuries before Christ. |
| I suppose that the aforesaid migration brought a new form of life, i.e., agriculture and the Venetic or Slav language to hunters and fishers there, forming gradually a new linguistic and cultural group, that of the Eastern Slavs. |
| Beside this, the migration of the Veneti brought to Eastern Europe also their spiritual world, their vision of nature and religion, enthusiasm, and a passionate zeal, which is characteristic for the so-called Russian soul. A term used particularly by the pan-Slav movement. |
| I believe that the spiritual world which reflects the »Russian soul«, in fact the Venetic experience, influenced also the Russian artistic and cultural creators. |
| Finally, we have a clear identity, which is embodied in the proto-Slav people, the Veneti. |
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| March 10, 2002 |
| Dear Mr. A. Paabo, |
| It was with great interest that I read your thoughts about Veneti, as expressed in the article on your web site, namely, `A Response to the Current Slavic/Slovene Theories on the Veneti and their Relationship to the Slavs/Slovenes'. In the article, if I read you correctly, you attempt to link Veneti with the Estonians by finding the meaning of the name Veneti in Estonian, by rationalizing and attempting to discredit the historical references which equate Veneti with Slavs and by negating Bor's decipherment of Venetic language. |
| Historical References |
| In the web-site article, you cite a number of historians, both ancient and medieval that refer to Veneti, starting with Homer (800 BC), who called them Eneti. You also mention that other Greek writers refer to Veneti as Enetoi, Eneti, Henetoi etc. You do explain that the Greeks did not use the V-sound and that these were the same peoples that the Romans called Veneti in the north Adriatic. |
| Roman historians Ptolemy and Tacitus also mention Veneti in the central Europe. Julius Caesar also mentions Veneti as he vanquished the Venetic fleet on the Atlantic coast of France, killed the nobles and sold the rest into slavery. |
| You cite Jordanes, writing in 552 AD:----at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Vinethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. |
| You also refer to another ancient source, St. Columban (543-616), who called the inhabitants of Noricum (now part of Austria and Slovenia), Veneti qui et Sclavi Dicuntur, `The Veneti who are also called Slavs'. |
| A Canadian researcher and linguist T. Priestly, cites a number of historical books where Vandals are equated with Slavs, namely: Miersuae Chronicon, of late 13th century, Saxonia, De Saxonicae gentis vetusta origine of the 15th century by Albert Krainz, Kronika polska of 1555 by Bielski, Rudimenta grammaticae Sorabico-Vandalicae idiomatis Budissinatis of 1673 by Georgius Ludovici, Principiae linguae Wendicae, quam aliqui Wandalicam vocant of 1679 by Jacobus Ticinius, Didascalia seu Orthographia Vandalica. Das ist Wendische Schreib- und Leselehr of 1689 by Zacharias Bierling (Priestly 2000). |
| Your claim that the name has disappeared over the centuries is not correct. The same Canadian researcher, T. Priestly, who has done and is still doing extensive linguistic studies of Slovenian dialects in Carinthia, southern Austria, writes:---The root vind-/vend- in Windisch has been used by German-speakers perhaps for two millennia. It probably originates in the Latin Veneti and was long used to denote Slavic peoples in general; among some sixteenth- and seventeenth-century German scholars, it was linked to the Vandals--------Before 1800 Windisch seems to have been a simple ethnonym, used to refer to Slovene-speakers in Carinthia and Styria in distinction to those in Carniola (the area around Ljubljana), who were called Krainer. ---Its specific twentieth-century application to denote a group of Slavs with the connotation "non-Slavic' is, in the view of its historical origin, extremely ironic-----In other words, Windisch became (at least for some Carinthians) what has been termed a "derogatory ethnic label"(Priestly 1997). In addition, Hungarians still call Slovenians-Vendek.(Savli et al., 1996)-- So much for its disappearance. |
| Are all these references, spanning millennia, just coincidences ? Before dismissing all these historical references equating Veneti with the Slavs as mere coincidences and without any value, you should check this with a statistician. |
| Thus far, I have not seen any historical references equating Veneti with the Finns nor with Estonians. Unfortunately, you have not provided these references either. |
| In science, it is unacceptable to reject facts, just because they doe not fit into the framework of a preconceived notion or theory. I believe, it was Einstein that said that it is necessary to change the theory to fit the facts, and not the other way. |
| The relationship between Vends/Wends, Veneti, Vandals and Slavs:--- |
| More than 30 years ago a fellow Canadian, George Sotiroff, also researched the Venetic question and published his paper in the Anthropological Journal of Canada . He used Pliny the Elder as the authority as he wrote about Veneti and Wendi:-----"these people (Veneti) occupied a sizable portion of Central Europe, along the Vistula, right up to the spot where the river flows into the Baltic Sea. This territory was rich in amber, a valuable export commodity particularly apt to attract attention of a trading people. This is also the area in which Pliny found the Vandili, an obvious diminutive of Vandi or Wends, as the Germans to this day call the Slavonic minority in Brandenburg and Saxony…….it was probably inevitable that the same name should be pronounced differently in different parts of Europe----Vencyans, Heneti, Veneti, Wendi or Vandili----depending on the peculiarities of the local speech." |
| He also writes:----"We are on somewhat firmer ground when it comes to the name of Vandals or Ouandili, as they were called by the authors writing in Greek. These Ouadili are generally thought to have been a Germanic tribe. However, in a largely forgotten work published in 1601-and banned shortly afterward-Mauro Orbini gives a Vandalic glossary of some 200 words, not one of which has a Germanic configuration. On the contrary, practically all occur today in the vocabulary of the Wends, around Bautzen near the city of Leipzig." |
| Sotiroff then cites some examples of Vandalic words with Slavonic equivalents from Mauro Orbini's book, which may be of interest to you: |
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| Sotiroff goes further to say: "The close similarity of the words shown in the first two columns brings to mind a curious footnote (4) to Book XV 605 of Nicephorus Callistus's Historia Ecclesiastica (P.G., t. 147 col. 38), which reads: "…sicut et apud Vandalos sive Bohemos, rex Odoacrus, vir fortissimus, ante Permislatus nominatus" This note, which seems to be due to Joannes Lange, Latin translator of Callistus, who identifies the Vandals with Czechs (Bohemians) and indicates that the original name of Odoacer was Permislatus, an obvious corruption of Berislav, a purely Slavonic name (Sotiroff 1971). |
| St. Jerome (c340-420 A.D.), Christian ascetic and Biblical scholar, chief preparer of the Vulgate version of the Bible, was born in the land of Veneti. He also knew that Slovenian tih means `silent'. It is also noteworthy, that when Pope John X (910-928), who was opposed to the Slavic Liturgy, be it that of Ciril and Methodius or the Glagolitic, which was in use in Istria and Dalmatia, withdrew the opposition, after the priests of the Glagolitic Liturgy explained to him that it originated with St. Jerome (Savli 1996). |
| Can all this be dismissed as coincedence. Certainly not. When a linguist compares three German words-gut-besser- best, meaning in English `good', better, best, he comes to the conclusion that this is no coincidence and the odds against that being random are astronomical (Priestly 2000). |
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Figure 5A, shows that Estonians are genetically closest to Saami and Mari and then to Latvians. The same graph shows that Slovenians are genetically closest to Swedes, followed by Czechs, Gotlanders and Norwegians and then Yugoslavs, Belarusians and Slovaks |
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Figure 5B, compares another set of genetic markers. In this comparison Estonians are again genetically closest to Saami, Mari and Latvians. In the case of Slovenians, it is Slovaks and Ukrainians that are the closest, followed by Gotlanders, Poles, Czechs, Belarusians, Swedes and Norwegians (Rosser 2000). |
| The above mentioned study was surprising, because Mari of central Asia are so far from Estonians geographically; yet Mari are closer to Estonians genetically than the Finns. The above mentioned research results relating to Slovenians, would also represent an anomaly to some people, but to those that have followed the research of Savli et al., this is no surprise. Savli shows that circa 1200 BC, Vandals were in Scandinavia. Then later Greek and Latin writers mention Veneti in northern Adriatic, on the Atlantic coast in Brittany, in Turkey on the coast of Black Sea and on the coast of the Baltic Sea, which was also known as the Venetic Sea (Savli et al., 1996). If we look at the map, we can see that the Vandals and Veneti were once both living on the shores of Venetic (now Baltic) Sea and probably spoke same or very similar language (Sotiroff 1971). The genetic results would also support this scenario. In addition, Old Norse and modern Slovenian still share some lexical similarities (Priestly 2000). |
| You may ask; what is the relationship between Vandali and Veneti. Historians tell us that Vandals had migrated to the region of the upper Danube by the 2nd century A.D. and were raiding across the river into Roman territory. Defeated by Emperor Aurelian in 271, the Vandals were enrolled as auxiliaries in the Roman army. A generation later, when attacked by the Goths, they were allowed to cross the Danube and settle in the province of Pannonia ( Jones 2000). As you may know, eastern part of Slovenia is part of Pannonian Plains. This is the territory where Veneti were already living. This would also mean that they came to the territory where the language of administration was Latin, but the people were probably still speaking Venetic language. (A good example is Palestine during the Roman rule. Christ taught in Aramaic, but the sign on the cross was in the languages of administration, since crucifixion was an official act.) The meaning of the root vend-indicates that they were able to understand each other. |
| Italian geneticists, Barbujani et al., in their study of population history of Europe, show graphically that Italian peninsula has four distinct genetic populations, Fig. 2. The graph shows that people of Tuscany and eastern Venetia are genetically similar to their Slavic neighbours to the east, whereas population of western Venetia and other populations to the west are genetically similar to the people of southern France. |
| Meaning of the name Veneti: |
| You musings about the name Veneti, as the people of the boats is credible, specially to us in Canada, who often read about the refugees and boats being their means of coming to Canada. |
| However there could be other interpretations. Human nature being what it is; we have a tendency to divide people into two categories: Blacks and Whites, Jews and Gentiles, Gnostics and Agnostics, Friends and Enemies. |
| Slovenians and Slavs in general call `Germans' Nemci in plural and Nemec in singular. Nemetes was also a tribe mentioned by Julius Caesar. This is an indication that the name has been around for millennia. As masculine adjective nem means `dumb' or `mute', in a sense of being unable to speak. In Russian, govorit' nemo means `speaking unintelligibly'. This would be in contrast to those whose language they could understand. |
| In Slovenian, vedeti means to `know' and veda means `knowledge' same as in Sanskrit. Vedic Sanskrit and Slovenian have about 20% lexical similarities and considerably more grammatical similarities. This was analysed and compared in paper written by Jagdish C. Sharda a Sanskrit scholar, who teaches Sanskrit and Hindi but whose mother tongue is Punjabi and myself (Skulj 2001), (Reindl 1999). Since Slavs and Indo-Aryans are also genetically quite similar (Malaspina 2000), (Kivisild 1999), (Underhill 2000), (Underhill 2001), it would be logical for me to seek the meaning of a name in a language that is also thousands of years old. |
| Sanskrit root vid and the derivatives should be examined. Sanskrit verbs will be shown with the root and 3rd person sing., and translated as infinitive as is the convention in the Sanskrit dictionaries printed in India. |
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| I would derive the name vind/vend from the verb vind, vindati, which would signify that a person was referring to an individual or the people he could understand, to distinguish an individual or people from those that he could not understand and for him they were nemi as an adjective and nemci as a noun both in 1st person plural, namely `those who could not speak the language.' The Romans probably transcribed that into Nemetes. Furthermore, Sanskrit literature mentions Vindu as a name of warrior tribe. |
| Decipherment of the language of Veneti: |
| The Venetic inscriptions have not been deciphered meaningfully prior to Bor, primarily because the Veneti wrote in continuo and breaking up the inscriptions into individual words, is a major problem. Veneti were not the only people that wrote in continuo. Sanskrit has a tendency to join words together, even going as far as making the whole sentence one word. Sanskrit, however has rules as how the words can be joined together; a word to describe this process is sandhi. If we could only find these rules in Venetic, the problem would have been solved long ago, provided that the scholars approached the question with an open mind. |
| The second problem that confuses this issue are the dots/periods. Bor assumed that they were primarily decorative in most cases and approached the decipherment with that mind set. In reality, dots/periods to denote the end of a sentence is a European language convention. To do the same, Sanskrit uses a vertical line, resembling capital -I-. When dots appear on a word they are to be read as n, an or am. So you can see that dots/periods can mean different things to different people and we should not be too dogmatic about them. |
| The third reason that prior to Bor no meaningful decipherment was made, because the scholars ignored the obvious. Despite so many place names that have meaning in Slovenian, they refused to use Slovenian as a templet to break up the inscriptions into meaningful words. Even if they claimed that the inscriptions were only names, this should not have been the end of the research, because, historically, people were given names that meant something. This has been obscured in Europe, because children were and still are given Christian names and these names quite often come from different language families and cultures, so that a person carrying a name quite often does not know what it means.. However other cultures namely, North American Indians and Indians from India give children the names that are still meaningful. |
| When we see place names such as Niagara, Erie, Ontario, Toronto and many Mississaugas, we know that there were other peoples living here that had their own languages. In Italy and Slovenia there are numerous place names recorded by the Romans, that best describe topography in Slovenian. I could go on and give examples an their meanings, but that would be another separate topic. |
| Date of Arrival to the Alps: |
| Geneticists using mtDNA trace lineages back into prehistory, through the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM), to the first settlement of Europe by anatomically modern humans about 50,000 years ago. The geneticists have determined, that there have been 5 migrations to the various regions of Europe and that the first 4 migrations spanning from 45,000 years ago to 9,000 years ago, brought over 90% of the genes to Europe. During the last 3,000 years about 7% came into the Alps and 5% came into North-eastern Europe (Richards 2000). |
| Conclusion: |
| All the evidence, be it genetic, historical, linguistic or topographic indicates that Slovenians are autochthonous in Slovenia and the neighbouring countries where they live. |
| References: |
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Jones T, (2000), "Vandals," Encyclopedia Americana, 2000, p.890. | |
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Kivisild T, et al., (1999), Deep common ancestry of Indian and western-Eurasian mitochondrial DNA lineages. Current Biology (:13331-1334. | |
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Malaspina P, et al., (2000), Patterns of male-specific inter-population divergence in Europe, West Asia and North Africa. Ann. Hum. Genet. 64:395-412. | |
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Priestly T, (1997), "On the development of Windischentheorie," International Journal of the Sociology of Language, 124 (1997), pp75-98. | |
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Priestly T, (2000), "Vandals, Veneti and Windischer," paper presented at AAASS, Denver, November 2000. | |
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Reindl DF, Information in an e-mail from Professor Donald F. Reindl, Department of Slavic Languages and Literatures, Indiana University, 09/04/99. | |
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Renfrew Lord C, (2000), "The past within us," nature genetics volume 26 November 2000, 253-254. | |
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Richards et al., (2000), Tracing European Founder Lineages in the Near Easteren mtDNA Pool. Am. J. Hum. Genet.(2000) 67:1251-1276. | |
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Rosser ZH, et al., (2000), "Y-Chromosomal Diversity in Europe is Clinal and Influenced Primarily by Geography, Rather than by Language," Am. J .Hum. Genet. (2000) 67:1526-1543. | |
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Savli J, Bor M, Tomazic I, trans. Anton Skerbinc, (1996), Veneti: First Builders of European Community. Tracing the History and Language of Early Ancestors of Slovenes. (Vienna: Editiones Veneti/Boswell, B.C. Canada: 1996 ISBN 0-9681236-0-0) pp. 58, 59, 77, 80, 165-167, 463-464. | |
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Skulj J, Sharda J (2001), "Indo-Aryan and Slavic Affinities," paper presented at First International Conference: The Veneti within the Ethnogenesis of the Central-European Population , Ljubljana, Slovenia, September 2001. | |
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Sotiroff G, (1971), "Phoenicians, Vencyans, Heneti, Veneti and Wendi," Anthropological Journal of Canada Vol. 9, No. 4, 1971, 5-10. | |
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Underhill PA, et al., (2000), Y chromosome sequence variation and the history of human populations. Nature genetics 26:358-361. | |
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Underhill PA et al., (2001), The phylogeography of Y chromosome binary haplotypes and the origins of modern humans. Ann. Hum. Genet. 65:43-62. | |
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| February 22, 2002 |
| Dear Prof. Priestly, |
| Thank you for your letter of April 28, 2001 and for the comments to my response to your paper "VANDALS, VENETI, WINDISHER: THE PITFALLS OF AMATEUR HISTORICAL LINGUISTICS" and that you appreciated the polite tone of my remarks. It is my belief that discussions between mature individuals, about historical or other matters, should be cordial, based on all available evidence, without dogmatism and without rancor, that is, on a civilized level. In your letter you also mention that you will be retiring soon and you also list some of the projects that you plan to pursue during your retirement. |
| As a retiree of 10 years, I wish you a happy, healthy and fruitful retirement. Also I am pleasantly surprised and at the same time glad that your retirement projects will focus on the Slovenian themes. |
| Perhaps, this may be due to the fact that, as a linguist, you already appreciate the archaic nature of Slovenian as much as that Texan, Bryant-Abraham, who also has a Canadian connection, a Ph.D. in linguistics from Universite de Montreal. Bryant-Abraham, who had previously done intensive studies in comparative Celtic linguistics, with a concentration on Old Irish and Old Welsh, has truly a high regard for the Slovenian language, as he states: "Indeed the high value of the ultra-conservative Slovenian dialects in the decipherment of these inscriptions has the potential of so enhancing the appreciation of Slovenian linguistics that those alpine dialects may yet come to be collectively hailed as the `mother of Slavic languages'"(Bryant-Abraham 2001). |
| To some, this may seem incredible, but a person familiar with Slovenian, Sanskrit, Hindi and Punjabi languages, can readily see the archaic nature of Slovenian language, since it still preserves many lexical and grammatical forms similar to Sanskrit, that are no longer present in Hindi or Punjabi. Furthermore, Russian geneticists are also advocating a historical theory, based on mtDNA genetic data, that there were Slavonic migrations, from their putative homeland in central Europe, to the east (Malyarchuk & Derenko 2001). Other researchers such as Simoni et al. theorize that the extinction of most populations north of the ice line at the last glacial maximum (LGM), could reasonably explain the existence of two different geographic patterns of mtDNA diversity in two climatic zones of Europe. The cline around the Mediterranean sea would be the only remaining trace of the initial, early Upper-Paleolithic colonization and they locate one of the glacial refugia in the Balkans (Simoni et al.2000). Sykes, after plotting thousands of DNA sequences from all over the world, found that they clustered around a handful of distinct groups. He places the origin of one of these genetic groups into north Adriatic, an area bordering on the north-eastern Italy, southern Austria, Slovenia and north-western Croatia (Sykes 2001). Also, based on genetic studies, Semino et al, conclude that during LGM, Western Europe was isolated from Central Europe, where an Epi-Gravettian culture persisted in the area of the present-day Austria, the Czech Republic, and the northern Balkans. After climatic improvement, this culture spread north and east. This finding is supported by the present Eu7 haplotype distribution (Semino et al. 2000). |
| Regarding ideas expressed in your paper and subsequent comments, I think we will have to agree to disagree. Perhaps you will change your mind when you do more research on the subject, now that you will have more time for the reading of the scientific papers during your retirement. I recommend research in genetics and the genetic comparisons of the people of Europe and the world. This may even give you a deeper insight into the Slovenian roots and language in Carinthia, which you are planning to study in your retirement. In addition to genetics a study of Sanskrit, specially Vedic Sanskrit, would be a big plus to help you in your study of Slovenian and its dialects. |
| Amateurs vs Professionals-----You write that amateurs may be right and that they may be wrong. I agree. But as a professional, I know that professionals can be right and they can be wrong also. I have made mistakes in my professional career. Usually this happened when I didn't listen to the so called amateurs, but who had a lot of on-the-job experience. Fortunately I learned early to keep my ear to the ground, otherwise I would have been fired from my job. I recognized my mistakes. I acknowledged them. Then I corrected them, without wasting too much time and effort in justifying my original decisions that resulted in errors. I have found that to avoid errors in judgement, a subject should be analyzed and viewed from as many perspectives as possible. A multidisciplinary approach should be taken wherever possible to provide the checks and balances in formulating conclusions. A reality check should be made at every possible step of the process. |
| With this in mind, let us not lose sight of the real world, where amateurs and school dropouts such as Dell, Ellison and Gates have made their fortunes in the complex world of computer hardware and software and are now some of the richest people on the planet. Even when looking back into history, the father of linguistics, Sir William Jones was an amateur in linguistics, as he made his living, working as a judge for the British Raj in India. (Sykes 2001) In the field of genetics, a self-taught amateur scientist Roy Robinson made substantial contribution to that science (Sykes 2001). With this in mind, is history really so complex a subject, that there is no room for an interested amateur. Do you really have to make a living from it, before you can do any research and make any contribution to that science, specially in this day and age when so much information, in diverse fields, is so readily available to an interested person? |
| Finally, Bryant-Abraham aptly summarizes this age old problem; even the Bible addresses it, as he writes: "As a point of transition, I shall attempt to illustrate an important principle. One of the earliest expressions of this principle is found in the second-century Jewish text, Pirke-Avot 4:1: `Ben Zoma used to say, who is wise? He who learns from all men, as is said in the Psalms, `From all my teachers I have gained wisdom.'"(Bryant-Abraham 2001) |
| The relationship between Vends/Wends, Veneti, Vandals and Slavs------You write: "The point of my section (2.2) about the Vandals was to refer to the association of Vandal and Wend/Vend, which was apparently based on no more than coincidence of the consonants…………….and I do consider that the Vandals who invaded North Africa were hardly likely to have been Slavs."(Priestly 2000).….. The statement appears to be a good example of junk science. This is an amateurish answer to a complex question, which may satisfy a student of linguistics in Alberta, who has not had a chance to read material other than school textbooks; but to me or to somebody that has done some reading of science journals, the statement does not appear to be very scientific, since it is not based on data or facts. Therefore, before I accept this "Coincidence of the Consonants Theory" as the gold standard of historical theories and the best explanation of the Vandal/Slav historical connections, the theory should explain: first, why are there so many historical references equating Vandals with Slavs (Priestly 2000), (Tulaev 2000), (Sotiroff 1971). Secondly, why is there a linguistic similarity between the language of the Vandals and present day Slovenian (Sotiroff 1971). Thirdly, why is there so much genetic similarity between modern inhabitants of the lands that were historically inhabited by the Vandals in Scandinavia, and the modern Slovenians (Rosser et al. 2000). Can "Coincidence of the Consonants Theory" explain rationally these historical references and explain the genetic similarities that have been discovered? |
| More than 30 years ago a fellow Canadian, George Sotiroff, Faculte des Lettres, Universite Laval, Quebec researched the Venetic question. He used Pliny the Elder as the authority as he wrote about Veneti and Wendi:…….. "these people (Venetians) occupied a sizable portion of Central Europe, along the Vistula, right up to the spot where the river flows into the Baltic Sea. This territory was rich in amber, a valuable export commodity particularly apt to attract attention of a trading people. This is also the area in which Pliny found the Vandili, an obvious diminutive of Vandi, or Wends, as the Germans to this day call the Slavonic minority in Brandenburg and Saxony……… it was probably inevitable that the same name should come to be pronounced differently in different parts of Europe-Venycians, Heneti, Veneti, Wendi or Vandili-depending on the peculiarities of the local speech." |
| He also wrote: ... "We are on somewhat firmer ground when it comes to the name of Vandals or Ouandili, as they were called by the authors writing in Greek. These Ouandili are generally thought to have been a Germanic tribe. However, in a largely forgotten work published in 1601-and banned shortly afterward-Mauro Orbini ( a Dalmatian ) gives a Vandalic glossary of some 200 words, not one of which has a Germanic configuration. On the contrary, practically all occur today in the vocabulary of the Wends, around Bautzen near the city of Leipzig." |
| Sotiroff goes further and cites some examples of Vandalic words with Slavonic equivalents from Mauro Orbini's book: |
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| Sotiroff goes further to say: "The close similarity of the words shown in the first two columns brings to mind a curious footnote ( 4 ) to Book XV 605 of Nicephorus Callistus's Historia Ecclesiastica (P. G., t.147 col.38), which reads: `….sicut et apud Vandalos sive Bohemos, rex Odoacrus, vir fortissimus, ante Permislatus nominatus' This note, which seems to be due to Joannes Lange, Latin translator of Callistus, who identifies the Vandals with Czechs (Bohemians) and indicates that the original name of Odoacer Permislatus, an obvious corruption of Berislav, a purely Slavonic name." (Sotiroff 1971) |
| This is not the only reference where Vandals are equated with Slavs. You refer to a number of historical references starting with Miersuae Chronicon, of the late 13th century, Saxonia, De Saxonicae gentis vetusta origine of the 15th century, Kronika polska of 1555, Rudimenta grammaticae Sorabico-Vandalicae idiomatis Budissinatis of 1673, Principiae linguae Wendicae, quam aliqui Wandalicam vocant of 1679, and others, where the Vandal-Slav connection was maintained (Priestly 2000). It is also interesting to read your previous comments: "The root vind/vend in Windisch has been used by German-speakers perhaps for two millenia (sic.). It probably originates in the Latin ethnonym Veneti and was long used to denote Slavic peoples in general; among some sixteenth- and seventeenth-century German scholars, it was linked to the Vandals, and the Slavs were thus given Germanic connections; but these theories were short-lived. Before 1800 Windish seems to have been a relatively simple ethnonym, used to refer to Slovene-speakers in Carinthia and Styria in distinction to those in Carniola (the area around Ljubljana), who were called Krainer."(Priestly 1997). |
| It may be of interest to you and other linguists that now, the geneticists are trying to find relationships between genes and languages. Rosser et al., in their genetic study of the European populations have come up with some startling information for scholars of the question of Vandals, Vends/Wends, Veneti and Slavs.. In their population comparisons through PC analysis, where PC analysis is a method that allows the graphic display, in a few dimensions, of the maximum amount of variance within a multivariate data set, with minimum loss of information, they show graphically genetic relationships between populations. Figure 5 shows the results of this PC analysis of the Y-chromosome HG data, in which populations are labelled according to linguistic affiliation. |
| In the first comparison, Figure 5A shows that genetically the closest people to Slovenians are Swedes, followed by Czechs, Gotlanders and Norwegians and then Yugoslavs, Belarusians and Slovaks. In the second graph, Figure 5B compares other genetic groups. In this comparison, the closest people to Slovenians are Slovaks and Ukrainians, followed by Gotlanders, Poles, Czechs, Belarusians, Swedes and Norvegians (Rosser et al. 2000). |
| To some people this would represent an anomaly, but to those that have followed the research of Savli, Bor, Tomazic, Verbovsek and other Venetologists, this is no surprise; specially if one recalls that Baltic Sea was once also known as Venetic and looking at the map one can easily see that the shores of Sweden and Gotland were washed by the Venetic sea. Savli also refers to a number of toponyms in Scandinavia that are derived from Veneti. Rosser et al., genetic study makes sense and explains why historians have been equating Vandals with Slavs. The language has changed, probably through the process of elite dominance, but the genetic similarity still remains. This also explains why Jeza found numerous direct linguistic similarities between Swedish and Slovenian, which you evaluate in your paper ( Priestly 2000). Indeed, it would be a real surprise, if there were no direct linguistic similarities, after all the genetic affinities, that Rosser et al., demonstrate. |
| How does "Coincidence of the Consonants Theory" explain this genetic affinity between Swedes and Slovenians in addition to the historical references and the linguistic similarities between Vandal and Slavonic languages?? |
| Another fellow Canadian, Anthony Ambrozic, who has researched the Venetic presence in France, has been able to decipher many ancient toponyms using Slovenian language as a catalyst, in areas with historic Venetic presence (Caesar), ( Ambrozic 1999), (Ambrozic 2000). This is another historical and linguistic connection between Veneti and Slovenians. |
| Slovenian and Sanskrit vs English and Sanskrit This is another field of study, where we have a major disagreement. With my limited knowledge of English, Sanskrit and Slovenian, I can see that grammatically and lexically Slovenian is closer to Sanskrit, than is English to Sanskrit and I maintain that this no coincidence. |
| To put this matter to test and then to rest, I am prepared to pay $10,000 ( TEN THOUSAND DOLLARS) to the first person that can prove me wrong and can show conclusively that statistically English is closer to Sanskrit than is Slovenian to Sanskrit. |
| However, to prove me wrong, it will not be enough just to cite some arcane authority and then build a new theory and support it with that quotation. The comparison must be based on lexicostatistics of grammatical and lexical similarities and should go beyond Swadesh list of words. A starting point should be Sir Monier Monier-Williams' A Sanskrit-English Dictionary and should include both Vedic and Classical Sanskrit. The words should show similarity in both sound and meaning, cognates. Slovenian should be adequately represented in the study, and there should be over 1000 entries, because that is how many there are already in my files, that are similar both in sound and meaning. |
| The comparison is to be based on the Comparative Method, but should be done on a QUANTITATIVE rather than just qualitative basis. This would be Quantitative Comparative Method (QCM). Each similar sound in the cognates would be assigned a point and then the total would be compared to Sanskrit. For the sake of simplicity, aspirated letters such as /kh/, /gh/, /ch/, /ph/, /dh/ and /th/ count as one letter since they are single letters in Sanskrit and are to be compared as if they were not aspirated. Also for this comparison no distinction is to be made between long and short vowels, cerebral and dental letters /t/, /d/, /n/ and Slovenian /nj/ since it is equivalent to Sanskrit palatal /n/. Only modern words in English and Slovenian are to be considered, but they can come from the literary form of from dialects. |
| For example, the Sanskrit verb plu, to float, to swim: ( Monier-Williams pg. 715), (Antoine R, 1991), (Bajec A, 1962) |
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| In this conjugated comparison of the verb to float, Slovenian plavati, Sanskrit plu; plavati out of the possible 73 points ( 5from root form and 68 from conjugations), if there were no differences from Sanskrit in the root and in the conjugation of the present tense, Slovenian would get 59 pts (60 pts if dialectical pronunciation is considered) since there are slight differences in the endings, but English would get only a score of 2, since the root is not fully inflectional and there are only two different word forms and the /l/ is counted once in each word form. |
| If we do some simple arithmetic, we can see that Slovenian is in (59/73x100)=81% agreement with Sanskrit. Whereas, English Sanskrit agreement is (2/73x100)=3%. This shows that, in the present conjugation of the verb to swim, Slovenian is 27 times closer to Sanskrit than English. |
| If we were to repeat this comparison in the causative and aorist, the results would be similar. |
| Repeating the process for adjectives, nouns and pronouns as they are all declined and adjectives agree with the nouns they modify; will give both grammatical and lexical similarities due emphasis. |
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| The adjective floating, Slovenian plavajoc', Sanskrit plava, when declined, in Sanskrit, has 8 cases in sing., 8 cases in dual and 8 cases in plural in masculine, same number in feminine and neuter genders. In 24 cases of masculine declensions, there are 17 different word forms By assigning one point for each sound, we get 115 points in 17 different words in masculine gender alone. Similarly in Slovenian, there are 6 cases in masculine singular, 6 cases in masculine dual and 6 cases in masculine plural, for a total of 18 cases. Out of 18 cases, there are 11 different word forms and 58 sounds that are identical to Sanskrit. This is agreement of (58/115x100)=50% of Slovenian with Sanskrit. English agreement is one letter in one word form to give (1/115x100)=1%. In this comparison, Slovenian is 50 times closer to Sanskrit than is English. |
| Here is list of additional adjectives derived from plu that can be declined and compared: |
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| Here is list of nouns derived from plu that can be declined and compared: |
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| Here again, if we go through the process of declining the above mentioned nouns, the results will be similar to the comparison of conjugated verb and the declined adjective. My lists have over 1000 similar examples, and that is why I am prepared to pay $10,000 to a person that succeeds in proving that in 2002 AD, English is closer to Sanskrit than Slovenian is to Sanskrit. |
| Yours truly, |
| Joe Skulj |
| PS |
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It may be of interest to you that Lord Colin Renfrew had high enough opinion of the book VENETI to recommend it to his colleague who is doing research on the early prehistory of Croatia ( Renfrew 2001). | |
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I am sending a copy of this letter to other Venetic scholars to alert them of the results of genetic research to complement the historical, linguistic, anthropological and archaeological information. | |
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With copies of this letter, I also wish to alert other linguists of the `contest', to compare English and Slovenian to Sanskrit. | |
| Cc: |
| Ambrozic A., Bryant-Abraham C., Lencek R., Mavretic A., Oresnik J., Pogacar T., Perdih A., Rant J., Reindl D., Rihar F., Savli J., Skerbinc A., Skof L., Smolej M., Snoj M., Stermole D., Stih P., Tomas E., Tomazic I., Tulaev P., Vodopivec P., Vuga L.. Zoldos S. |
| References: |
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Ambrozic A, (1999), Adieu to Brittany (Toronto: Cythera Press), pp 87-130. | |
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Ambrozic A, (2000), Journey Back to the Garumna (Toronto: Cythera Press), pp7-214. | |
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Antoine R, (1991), A Sanskrit Manual (Calcutta, India: Xavier Publications) | |
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Bajec A, ed., (1962), Slovenski Pravopis ( Ljubljana, Slovenia, Drzavna Zalozba Slovenije). | |
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Bryant-Abraham C, (1999), "Book Review of Veneti: First Builders of European Community: Tracing the History and Language of Early Ancestors of Slovenes," The Augustan Volume XXVI, Number 3, Issue Number 111. | |
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Bryant-Abraham C, (2001), "Refinements and Future Directions in Venetic Scholarship", paper, SSK Conference `Origins of the Slovenians," Ljubljana Slovenia, 17-18 September 2001. | |
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Bryant-Abraham C, (2001), "Refinements and Future Directions in Venetic Scholarship," The Journal of Ancient and Mediaeval Studies, XVIII (September 2001), pp 84-101. | |
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Caesar J, The Gallic War, trans..Carolyn Hammond (1996) ( New York: Oxford University Press, 1996), pp L-Ll, 57-63. | |
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Malyarchuk BA, Derenko MV, (2001) "Mitochondrial DNA variability in Russians and Ukrainians: Implications to the origins of the Eastern Slavs," Ann. Hum. Genet. (2001), 65, 63-78. | |
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Monier-Williams Sir M, A Sanskrit-English Dictionary, 12th ed. ( Delhi, India: Motilal Barnasidass Publishers Private Limited, 1993, ISBN: 81-208-0069-9) pp 1-1333. | |
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Priestly T, (1997), "On the development of the Windischentheorie," International Journal of the Sociology of Language, 124 (1997), pp. 75-98. | |
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Priestly T, (2000), "Vandals, Veneti and Windischer: The Pitfalls of Amateur Historical Linguistics," text for possible publication, being a longer version of "The `Veneti" Theory" paper, AAASS, Denver, November 2000. | |
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Renfrew Lord C, (2001), Information in a letter from Professor Lord Renfrew of The McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research, Cambridge, England to Anton Skerbinc, Boswell BC Canada, 19 October 2001. | |
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Rosser ZH, et al. (2000) "Y-Chromosomal Diversity in Europe is Clinal and Influenced Primarily by Geography, Rather than by Language," Am. J. Hum. Genet. 67:1526-1543. | |
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Sotiroff G, (1971), "Phoenicians, Vencyans, Heneti, Veneti and Wendi," Anthropological Journal of Canada Vol. 9, No. 4, 1971, 5-10. | |
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Savli J., Bor M., Tomazic I., trans. Anton Skerbinc, (1996), Veneti: First Builders of European Community. Tracing the History and Language of Early Ancestors of Slovenes. (Vienna: Editiones Veneti / Boswell, B.C. Canada: Anton Skerbinc, 1996 ISBN 0-9681236-0-0) pp.58, 165-167. | |
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Semino O, et al., (2000), "The Genetic Legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in Extant Europeans: A Y Chromosome Perspective," Science VOL 290 10 NOVEMBER 2000. | |
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Simoni L, et al. (2000), "Geographic Patterns of mtDNA Diversity in Europe," Am. J. Hum. Genet. 66:262-278. | |
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Sykes B,(2001), The Seven Daughters of Eve (New York: W. W. Norton & Company 2001, ISBN 0-393-02018-5) pp. i, 58, 149. | |
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Tulajev P, (2000), trans. Milan Smolej Veneti: Predniki Slovanov ( Moscow: Belie Alvi, 2000. ISBN 5-7619-0111-0) pp155-160. | |
| Prof. Charles-Bryant Abraham: |
| Mnenje prof. dr. Charlesa Bryanta-Abrahama, poslano 6. 4. 2001 na predstavitev zadnjega Venetskega zbornika. Profesor je po pomoti zamenjal zborik z angleško izdajo knjige o Venetih in tudi cas predstavitve. Toda njegove besede so na vsak nacin so izredno pomenljive, in je nedvomno prav, da pridejo tudi v širšo javnost. |
| It is a distinct honor to express my esteem and encouragement before this August assembly for Jozko Savli, Matej Bor and Ivan Tomazic, authors of Veneti: First Builders of European Community; Tracing the History and Language of Early Ancestor of Slovenes, the book whose public presentation you have gathered to celebrate today. |
| The research results set forth in this modest book are truly iconoclastic, and serve as an accurate indice of the originality of critical thought behind it, an existentially authentic hallmark of all pioneering creativity. |
| The linguistic findings presented publicly today represent a most welcome departure from the adage: «If it's new, it's not true; if it's true, it's not new.« The authors of Veneti have indeed forged a new and true course for future investigation into the early Slavic expansion throughout great parts of prehistoric Europe. |
| Already we see heretofore unknown names emerging in Venetic scholarship, names destined to blaze forward into this exciting, new field of Slavic and European linguistic history. I would only mention two: 1. The Czech scholar, Peter Jendacek, who has successfully demonstrated the extensive Venetic lexical layer in Basque; and, 2. The Slovenian scholar Anthony Ambrozic who has now published six Venetic inscriptions from the archeological ruins of Dura Europos, Syria, a Hellenistic city founded by Alexander the Great and ultimately destroyed by the Sassanians in 256 AD Mr. Ambrozic has also published a vast array of Venetic inscriptions from pre-Roman Gaul and a decisive analysis of Gaulic toponyms of Venetic etymology. |
| Future Venetic scholarship will look back at Veneti, the book you are now assembled to acknowledge, as the initial, daring steps into the virgin wilderness of primeval, Lusatian Europe. Jozko Savli, Matej Bor, and Ivan Tomazic have made an important contribution not only to Slovenian linguistic theory, but specifically to the global expansion of our accumulating reservoir of human knowledge. They are to be lauded as genuine cultural heroes of their beloved Slovenian people, yes, but above and beyond all else, as the first, intrepid navigators into the as yet poorly charted waters of European prehistory. |
| It is my most profound honor to be associated with them. |